Planning/Meetings/20080329

Wikimania 2008 Alexandria :: Change the shape of wisdom
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[2008-03-29 15:02:00] <kibble> meeting?
[2008-03-29 15:19:42] <Khaled> SA, Hello All
[2008-03-29 15:19:58] <Khaled> is this wikimania meeting ?
[2008-03-29 15:25:50] <britty> seems nothing happens ;(
[2008-03-29 15:25:57] <britty> or i missed something?
[2008-03-29 15:26:30] <britty> it reminded me on Ied
[2008-03-29 15:26:38] <britty> (sorry perhaps misspelled)
[2008-03-29 15:26:49] <britty> there was a muslim feast and no local showed up 
[2008-03-29 15:27:47] * brianmc wants the leftovers from the feast.
[2008-03-29 15:28:13] <Khaleeeeed> Here I am, is this diffirernt than the meeting in the IRC room?
[2008-03-29 15:28:32] <Sam1> hi all
[2008-03-29 15:29:52] <Arria> britty: Eid, but I don't remember which Eid.
[2008-03-29 15:30:06] * Arria wants the leftovers, too
[2008-03-29 15:31:00] <Sam1> who is the coordinator of this meeting?
[2008-03-29 15:31:11] <britty> the last year Eid
[2008-03-29 15:32:25] <Khaleeeeed> I'm  asking the same "the coordinator of the meeting" ?
[2008-03-29 15:36:03] <britty> Khaled, normally mido moderates the meeting
[2008-03-29 15:36:07] <britty> he is our leader
[2008-03-29 15:36:17] <Andy123> The Khalifa, yeah
[2008-03-29 15:39:03] <Khaled> excuse me as I don't find'em now in the list
[2008-03-29 15:39:08] <Khaled> ok,  then we are following an agenda ?
[2008-03-29 15:39:40] <Khaled> welcome Mido
[2008-03-29 15:40:43] <Mido_> I thought the meeting was the one first up here, at 19:00. god that is really awful
[2008-03-29 15:41:00] <kibble> :-|
[2008-03-29 15:41:01] <britty> no problem
[2008-03-29 15:41:03] <britty> britty then I hereby propose we will give them 5 more minutes
[2008-03-29 15:41:03] <britty> britty if one of them show up, we cancell this meeting
[2008-03-29 15:41:07] <Mido_> sorry for all at first, I even set the reminder at 21 here
[2008-03-29 15:41:12] <kibble> the meeting begins and I have to go shower
[2008-03-29 15:41:13] <britty> and you came just the last minute!
[2008-03-29 15:41:22] <britty> the lord may want us to have a meetimg ;)
[2008-03-29 15:41:31] <britty> kibble, lol
[2008-03-29 15:41:35] <Andy123> mido_, I sent you a reminder via google talk five minutes ago
[2008-03-29 15:41:37] <britty> good bathtime!
[2008-03-29 15:41:41] <Andy123> ^^
[2008-03-29 15:41:42] <kibble> :-)
[2008-03-29 15:41:50] <Mido_> yeah, I believe He's :)
[2008-03-29 15:41:57] <Mido_> yes, thanks Andy123 
[2008-03-29 15:42:25] <Khaled> :)
[2008-03-29 15:42:32] <Mido_> so, here we begin
[2008-03-29 15:42:36] <Mido_> who does the logging?
[2008-03-29 15:43:09] <Mido_> eiaway ?
[2008-03-29 15:43:18] <Mido_> Markie said he would be present
[2008-03-29 15:43:34] <Mido_> britty, who's here anyway now?
[2008-03-29 15:43:48] <britty> cary no delphine no
[2008-03-29 15:43:58] <britty> and from the Alex team you have come
[2008-03-29 15:44:15] <Mido_> Khaled: hello
[2008-03-29 15:44:18] <britty> ooh and we have no schiste 
[2008-03-29 15:44:24] <Mido_> you're from Egypt, right?
[2008-03-29 15:44:30] <Mido_> so basically weak attendance
[2008-03-29 15:44:39] <isalem0> I'm islam from egypt
[2008-03-29 15:44:49] * britty wondered the same question: [kh] sounds very arabic
[2008-03-29 15:44:52] <britty> salaam isalem0 
[2008-03-29 15:45:00] <Mido_> Ahlan Islam
[2008-03-29 15:45:05] <Mido_> Alex?
[2008-03-29 15:45:08] <isalem0> hi all
[2008-03-29 15:45:11] <isalem0> Cairo
[2008-03-29 15:45:29] <Mido_> seems most of the online volunteers come from Alex?
[2008-03-29 15:45:34] <Mido_> no ?*
[2008-03-29 15:46:10] <Khaled> Not All
[2008-03-29 15:46:13] <Khaled> :) 
[2008-03-29 15:46:23] <Mido_> so you come from :)?
[2008-03-29 15:46:36] <Khaled> Cario 
[2008-03-29 15:46:51] <Khaled> but now I'm in Italy 
[2008-03-29 15:47:02] <isalem0> hello khaled
[2008-03-29 15:47:11] <Mido_> hmm, cool
[2008-03-29 15:47:13] <Khaled> Hello Isalem0
[2008-03-29 15:47:24] <isalem0> we miss you in STP
[2008-03-29 15:47:30] <Khaled> but sure I'll return home back :)
[2008-03-29 15:47:40] <Khaled> thanks is
[2008-03-29 15:47:41] <isalem0> waiting for you
[2008-03-29 15:47:55] <Khaled> :)
[2008-03-29 15:48:09] <Khaled> Mido , you are from Alex ?
[2008-03-29 15:48:16] <Mido_> yes, sure
[2008-03-29 15:48:57] <Khaled> fine :) , All the local Volunteers should be "Alexandrian2? :D
[2008-03-29 15:48:57] <Mido_> we shall start now, no logging and I will take minutes
[2008-03-29 15:49:06] <Mido_> no, not all
[2008-03-29 15:49:15] <Mido_> I will explain further now
[2008-03-29 15:49:17] <Khaled> OK , let's start
[2008-03-29 15:49:30] <Khaled> we are following the agenda ?
[2008-03-29 15:49:37] <Mido_> yes
[2008-03-29 15:50:27] <Mido_> for the website organization.
[2008-03-29 15:50:44] <Mido_> any of you would volunteer to work on that one?
[2008-03-29 15:51:02] <Mido_> we need to fill the data required about Egypt, Cairo and Alex
[2008-03-29 15:51:24] <isalem0> ok, I'm ready
[2008-03-29 15:51:25] <Mido_> and wiki formatting, layout design, keeping things update, translated, etc..
[2008-03-29 15:51:44] <Khaled> I can help in translation
[2008-03-29 15:52:05] <Khaled> collecting data , but no huge experince in coding 
[2008-03-29 15:52:11] <Khaled> html, php etc :(
[2008-03-29 15:52:26] <isalem0> I can fit in this
[2008-03-29 15:52:38] <Mido_> wiki coding is much more simple than those
[2008-03-29 15:52:52] <Mido_> you can find help on Meta
[2008-03-29 15:53:10] <Mido_> I will add to the minutes, links on how t edit wiki
[2008-03-29 15:53:26] <Khaled> Fine
[2008-03-29 15:53:38] <Mido_> Markie should give you more info about what's needed, but let's get through this quickly
[2008-03-29 15:53:55] <Mido_> we have the whole website layout in http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Site_Map
[2008-03-29 15:53:56] <Khaled> ok , I edited it before
[2008-03-29 15:54:04] <Mido_> that should contain pages to be done
[2008-03-29 15:54:24] <Mido_> Local information are located in the portal http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Local_information
[2008-03-29 15:54:27] =-= Mido_ is now known as Mido
[2008-03-29 15:54:56] <Mido> divided into categories and pages, as you may see
[2008-03-29 15:55:10] <Mido> the local team will start to work on that one, but this is a wiki!
[2008-03-29 15:55:29] <Mido> that means that everyone can work on it, develop material, edit, etc..
[2008-03-29 15:55:54] <Khaled> in which language it should be ?
[2008-03-29 15:56:03] <Khaled> Arabic , English only?
[2008-03-29 15:56:04] <Mido> English and Arabic
[2008-03-29 15:56:15] <Mido> no, that is the basic ones only
[2008-03-29 15:56:53] <Mido> we will try to make this avaliale in as much as languages as we can
[2008-03-29 15:57:14] <Mido> I mean you can put in either so others can translate it or make it grow
[2008-03-29 15:57:19] <Khaled> as I can do some work in italian
[2008-03-29 15:57:44] <Mido> Markie did placeholder pages like http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/About_Alexandria/Geography
[2008-03-29 15:58:07] <Mido> you can edit it and fill the data
[2008-03-29 15:58:57] <Mido> brity , Danny_B: translation system?
[2008-03-29 15:59:15] <Danny_B> eeee, what's going on?
[2008-03-29 15:59:36] <Mido> we were talking about translating the local info into many languages
[2008-03-29 15:59:51] <Mido> how can we make a system for this to happen. like the cfp one?
[2008-03-29 16:00:00] <Mido> or that would be too complicated?
[2008-03-29 16:01:13] <isalem0> I can get some one to do this in french
[2008-03-29 16:01:18] <Danny_B> cfp is how main page was done before
[2008-03-29 16:01:27] <britty> Khaled, for translation things please visit [[WM:T]] on wm2008 wiki
[2008-03-29 16:01:28] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:T
[2008-03-29 16:01:52] <Khaled> Ok ! thanks
[2008-03-29 16:01:58] <Danny_B> if you won't expect many/major changes in local info, just simply let translators translate the page
[2008-03-29 16:02:23] <Mido> I expect so
[2008-03-29 16:02:32] <britty> if you think your page is ready
[2008-03-29 16:02:34] <britty> just poke us
[2008-03-29 16:02:34] <Danny_B> but if you expect changes, especially layout, suggesting the current templated system as main page has
[2008-03-29 16:02:42] <britty> kibble may copyedit (he is an american) 
[2008-03-29 16:02:52] <britty> and then we'll call for translation
[2008-03-29 16:03:12] <Danny_B> that reminds me we need to poke translators for re-creating main page translations
[2008-03-29 16:03:22] <britty> yeah if you intend to change the layout design or whatever, it is better to be done before we ask for translations
[2008-03-29 16:03:24] <Danny_B> most of them are obsolete
[2008-03-29 16:03:35] <Danny_B> and cs is the only in templated version
[2008-03-29 16:03:39] <britty> wm2007 wikis were sometimes recreated
[2008-03-29 16:03:39] * kibble is now clean
[2008-03-29 16:03:42] * kibble wonders what he missed
[2008-03-29 16:03:45] * britty waves
[2008-03-29 16:03:50] <britty> (almost nothing)
[2008-03-29 16:04:01] <Mido> Danny_B: that's another point to raise, I think you said we should have another entire new layout
[2008-03-29 16:04:02] <britty> i think we are better to use template for main page
[2008-03-29 16:04:07] <britty> to divide content into parts
[2008-03-29 16:04:34] <britty> for translation the main concern is if a page is fixed and ready
[2008-03-29 16:04:35] <Danny_B> Mido: of what?
[2008-03-29 16:04:40] <Mido> local info
[2008-03-29 16:04:41] <britty> if you think it is not or soon replaced
[2008-03-29 16:04:44] <britty> just say so
[2008-03-29 16:05:04] <Danny_B> britty: we do already use templated version of main page (see [[Main Page/cs]])
[2008-03-29 16:05:04] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/cs
[2008-03-29 16:05:06] <britty> or you think it could be changed, it is nice of you to talk to us that
[2008-03-29 16:05:20] <Mido> I think we'll change a bit in the graphics and layout of it britty
[2008-03-29 16:05:30] <britty> well but not the text?
[2008-03-29 16:06:04] <Mido> it's complicated in fact
[2008-03-29 16:06:17] <Mido> or so I see it
[2008-03-29 16:06:41] <kibble> what's complicated?
[2008-03-29 16:06:48] <kibble> [[Main Page]] or [[Main Page/cs]]?
[2008-03-29 16:06:49] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page | http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/cs
[2008-03-29 16:07:00] <Mido> kibble: would you please tell us what other tasks that should be done on website?
[2008-03-29 16:07:00] <britty> hmmm Danny_B i confess i understand what it is made
[2008-03-29 16:07:09] <Mido> kibble:Main Page
[2008-03-29 16:07:48] <Addymelov> I feel it is too complicated to be changed easily
[2008-03-29 16:07:51] <Danny_B> Mido: default (en) mainpage is necessary to be done this way
[2008-03-29 16:07:59] <kibble> Mido: so far translations are the main thing (/me needs his other half, Markie to give a better recap :-P )
[2008-03-29 16:08:05] <Danny_B> Addymelov: absolutely not
[2008-03-29 16:08:08] <kibble> until we get more information from the committees
[2008-03-29 16:08:17] <kibble> like registration / scholarships / etc.
[2008-03-29 16:08:30] <Danny_B> Addymelov: se mp/cs - it's way so easy to change the value of such variable
[2008-03-29 16:08:52] <Addymelov> I'm speaking the layout and design
[2008-03-29 16:08:53] * kibble nods, it is definitely easier the way Danny_B has done it
[2008-03-29 16:08:53] <britty> conceptually i understand
[2008-03-29 16:08:57] <britty> but i fear to fill those values
[2008-03-29 16:09:28] <britty> perhaps you could tune it more dummy friendly?
[2008-03-29 16:09:32] <britty> like using subpages?
[2008-03-29 16:09:47] <britty> not all translators are wiki-savvy
[2008-03-29 16:09:49] <Danny_B> not subpages but template i'd say
[2008-03-29 16:09:53] <Danny_B> something like
[2008-03-29 16:09:56] <kibble> what do you fear, britty, updating [[Main Page]]?
[2008-03-29 16:09:56] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
[2008-03-29 16:10:00] <kibble> or creating a new translation?
[2008-03-29 16:10:08] <Danny_B> {{translate|variablename|variable value}}
[2008-03-29 16:10:08] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:translate
[2008-03-29 16:10:11] <britty> main page/whatsoever
[2008-03-29 16:10:24] <Danny_B> creating new translation is way so easy
[2008-03-29 16:10:32] <Danny_B> it's just filling the variables
[2008-03-29 16:10:35] <britty> Danny_B, well ... for you perhaps so
[2008-03-29 16:10:42] <Mido> can you document this somewhere Danny_B ?
[2008-03-29 16:10:50] <britty> but if you don't know the syntax it is somehow horrible
[2008-03-29 16:11:02] <britty> translators prefer to work on text-only versions
[2008-03-29 16:11:08] <kibble> britty: did you think the "Donate" part was hard?
[2008-03-29 16:11:15] <kibble> we're trying to make this more text-only ;-)
[2008-03-29 16:11:16] <Danny_B> britty: http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/cs&action=edit
[2008-03-29 16:11:17] <britty> kibble, a bit
[2008-03-29 16:11:18] <Addymelov> Danny_B I was speaking about changing the layout it would be hard as we have to stick to the mother wiki style
[2008-03-29 16:11:21] <kibble> by getting rid of the wiki-text / formatting
[2008-03-29 16:11:27] <britty> kibble, yeah
[2008-03-29 16:11:29] <Danny_B> britty: it seems to be difficult for you?
[2008-03-29 16:11:38] <britty> Danny_B, yes
[2008-03-29 16:11:39] <kibble> and it'll hopefully be easier for us to update this why
[2008-03-29 16:11:43] <kibble> way*
[2008-03-29 16:11:50] <Danny_B> wow
[2008-03-29 16:11:55] <Mido> agreed
[2008-03-29 16:11:57] * Danny_B is just shocked
[2008-03-29 16:11:59] <britty> if we hand translators a source text
[2008-03-29 16:12:06] <britty> it should be ideally content only text
[2008-03-29 16:12:14] <Danny_B> britty: it does
[2008-03-29 16:12:18] <britty> no
[2008-03-29 16:12:23] <britty> many wiki syntax
[2008-03-29 16:12:27] <Mido> britty, we can extract the variables, and put it in a page
[2008-03-29 16:12:28] <Danny_B> where?
[2008-03-29 16:12:28] <kibble> but then, britty, how would we know where to put links and such things like that?
[2008-03-29 16:12:43] <britty> kibble, so "ideally"
[2008-03-29 16:12:47] <Danny_B> kibble hits the nailhead
[2008-03-29 16:12:48] <kibble> :-)
[2008-03-29 16:12:52] * kibble sees, britty
[2008-03-29 16:12:52] <britty> Mido, yes it will be nice
[2008-03-29 16:12:54] <Mido> and all we do is hand those sentences each with variable name 
[2008-03-29 16:12:59] <Danny_B> britty: you can't get rid of [[]]
[2008-03-29 16:13:13] <britty> Danny_B, yes i know and it is the hardest part why we cannot outsource this task 
[2008-03-29 16:13:14] <kibble> Danny_B: I think she means that she wishes we could, but knows we can't :-(
[2008-03-29 16:13:14] <Danny_B> i got rid of every single other wikisyntax except for links
[2008-03-29 16:13:32] <britty> less wikisyntax, more translators 
[2008-03-29 16:13:50] <Danny_B> omg the ONLY wikisyntax are links
[2008-03-29 16:13:53] <Danny_B> nothing more
[2008-03-29 16:14:01] <kibble> Danny_B: I think she's saying in general :-)
[2008-03-29 16:14:05] <Danny_B> we can't get rid of it
[2008-03-29 16:14:07] <kibble> not commenting on this itself
[2008-03-29 16:14:12] <Danny_B> because of two reasons
[2008-03-29 16:14:19] <britty> well
[2008-03-29 16:14:21] <Danny_B> different word oreder in different langs
[2008-03-29 16:14:23] <britty> {{:main page
[2008-03-29 16:14:27] <Danny_B> and also link targets
[2008-03-29 16:14:30] <britty> if you write so and say it is to translate 
[2008-03-29 16:14:47] <britty> some people then translate "main page" at first
[2008-03-29 16:14:55] <kibble> britty: I know what you mean here
[2008-03-29 16:15:01] <britty> and then ask what means hdlwikimania
[2008-03-29 16:15:03] <kibble> and we ran into such problems with Donate, but the good thing is
[2008-03-29 16:15:13] <Danny_B> come on, just put <!-- DO NOT TRANSLATE THIS --> there and that's it
[2008-03-29 16:15:22] <Mido> no
[2008-03-29 16:15:23] <britty> so text is very hard to read
[2008-03-29 16:15:24] <kibble> or just say translate the text *after* the = sign
[2008-03-29 16:15:31] <Mido> I'd suggest another thing
[2008-03-29 16:15:33] <Mido> {{#if:{{{hdlWhatIsWikimania|}}}|{{{hdlWhatIsWikimania}}}|What is Wikimania?}}
[2008-03-29 16:15:36] <Danny_B> kibble: right
[2008-03-29 16:15:59] <Danny_B> Mido: yes?
[2008-03-29 16:16:14] <britty> "[[wm2005:|stránky Wikimania 2005]]" .. this is another kind of problems
[2008-03-29 16:16:15] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/wm2005:
[2008-03-29 16:16:16] <Mido> we take out What is Wikimania? and put it in a page like : "WhatIsWikimania ==> What is Wikimania"
[2008-03-29 16:16:29] <Mido> and leave a note" translate only after the arrow"
[2008-03-29 16:16:41] <Danny_B> Mido: ???
[2008-03-29 16:16:51] <Danny_B> britty: what kind of problems?
[2008-03-29 16:17:07] <Mido> and then someone put the values in the mainpage/**
[2008-03-29 16:17:07] <britty> they may want to translate wm2005 part too
[2008-03-29 16:17:36] <Danny_B> britty: but we can't get rid of it as i already said
[2008-03-29 16:17:37] <britty> if you ask for translation, you are expect to give them only translation needed materials
[2008-03-29 16:17:39] <Danny_B> the reasons
[2008-03-29 16:17:48] <britty> yes
[2008-03-29 16:17:55] <britty> for that purpose we need a documentation
[2008-03-29 16:18:00] <britty> what should be translated and what not
[2008-03-29 16:18:08] <britty> so better not to includce them in this way
[2008-03-29 16:18:09] <Danny_B> let's not suppose translators are stupid
[2008-03-29 16:18:26] <britty> Danny_B, i experienced similar things on wmf website translations
[2008-03-29 16:18:31] <britty> many of them are experienced wikimedians
[2008-03-29 16:18:40] <britty> but they made a lot of red links
[2008-03-29 16:19:01] <britty> to translate file names into their lang version which hadn't existed
[2008-03-29 16:19:14] <Danny_B> well tell them not to translate the link targets
[2008-03-29 16:19:21] <Danny_B> that's it
[2008-03-29 16:19:26] <Danny_B> you have only two rules
[2008-03-29 16:19:28] <britty> Danny_B, that said it needs documentations
[2008-03-29 16:19:34] <Danny_B> do not translate the first line
[2008-03-29 16:19:35] <britty> well this is too complicated to ask
[2008-03-29 16:19:40] <Danny_B> and do not translate targets
[2008-03-29 16:19:42] <Danny_B> nothing else
[2008-03-29 16:20:07] <britty> well i don't like to mix not to translate and to translate
[2008-03-29 16:20:21] * Danny_B gives up
[2008-03-29 16:20:35] <britty> if we are going to this way, the right side should be more shorter
[2008-03-29 16:20:36] <Mido> a question, do we expect more translations?
[2008-03-29 16:20:36] <Mido> *new* main pages/
[2008-03-29 16:20:58] <Danny_B> britty: impossible
[2008-03-29 16:21:10] <Danny_B> you can't simply shorten it
[2008-03-29 16:21:20] <Danny_B> each language has a different order
[2008-03-29 16:21:22] <britty> why not subpage?
[2008-03-29 16:21:32] <Danny_B> you can't simply cut it into sentences
[2008-03-29 16:22:00] <britty> i have no idea why we need to make it into one template
[2008-03-29 16:22:05] <britty> it may increase our workload
[2008-03-29 16:22:12] <britty> and complexity
[2008-03-29 16:22:16] <Danny_B> subpages will much more
[2008-03-29 16:22:20] <britty> no
[2008-03-29 16:22:28] <britty> for subpage you can only put text with some links
[2008-03-29 16:22:32] <britty> not valuables or whatsoever
[2008-03-29 16:22:54] <Danny_B> britty: but you alseo required easy way to edit the default
[2008-03-29 16:23:03] <Danny_B> subpages would make it more difficult
[2008-03-29 16:23:27] <kibble> the small mistakes that they mght make would be easy to fix
[2008-03-29 16:23:43] <Danny_B> besides if you want to use subpages for stuff like local info then first of all you must make an order in those pages
[2008-03-29 16:23:45] <britty> i cannot ask for task I don't understand at all
[2008-03-29 16:24:24] <Mido> Danny_B: would you please write the documentation for this asap?
[2008-03-29 16:24:31] <Danny_B> there's no structure ther atm which would cause it so difficult
[2008-03-29 16:24:35] <britty> and my experience says it is a bad idea to mix things to be translated and things not to be 
[2008-03-29 16:24:50] <Danny_B> britty: i understand you
[2008-03-29 16:25:02] <Danny_B> now, let me ask this:
[2008-03-29 16:25:14] <Danny_B> are you going to outsorce the translations?
[2008-03-29 16:25:32] <Danny_B> or let me ask other way
[2008-03-29 16:25:36] <britty> not sure but we are planning
[2008-03-29 16:26:06] <Danny_B> why don't we make a simple list of plain strings (except for linklinks) for translators?
[2008-03-29 16:26:24] <britty> yeah it would be very nice
[2008-03-29 16:26:30] <Mido> and that's what I was saying
[2008-03-29 16:26:37] <Danny_B> anf give them just that list if you think they're that much stupid they won't understand two three simple rules
[2008-03-29 16:26:40] <britty> and you think we later fill them into the template?
[2008-03-29 16:26:47] * kibble nods at britty
[2008-03-29 16:26:48] <Danny_B> yep
[2008-03-29 16:26:50] <Mido> yes, 
[2008-03-29 16:27:01] <britty> Danny_B, too complicated things are hard to understand
[2008-03-29 16:27:06] <Mido> thank god, agreed now?
[2008-03-29 16:27:07] <britty> specially if it out of their convention
[2008-03-29 16:27:10] <kibble> Mido: ;-)
[2008-03-29 16:27:16] <britty> Mido, i hope so
[2008-03-29 16:27:21] <kibble> Mido: lucky that this is the only heated discussion we've had :-P
[2008-03-29 16:27:59] <Danny_B> so i wonder what i have in common with that list then ;-)
[2008-03-29 16:28:01] <Mido> Danny_B: would you please work on getting those strings sorted out somewhere, and remind on the main page source, that we have to update both pages
[2008-03-29 16:28:07] <Danny_B> anybody can create the list
[2008-03-29 16:28:24] <Danny_B> Mido: pardon me?
[2008-03-29 16:28:40] <britty> well perhaps a numbered list is enough
[2008-03-29 16:28:52] <Mido> I'm talking in a weird language today perhaps
[2008-03-29 16:28:52] <Danny_B> that's wikitext :-P
[2008-03-29 16:28:55] <britty> we can comment those numbers out in the source
[2008-03-29 16:29:27] <Mido> Danny_B: say you're gonna update english main page, and we have some where else the strings to be translated into any language 
[2008-03-29 16:29:42] <Mido> when you update the source, go and update the strings
[2008-03-29 16:29:45] <Mido> clear?
[2008-03-29 16:29:48] <Danny_B> i see
[2008-03-29 16:30:17] <Danny_B> give me some time, i just got an idea how to fulfil the needs of all of us
[2008-03-29 16:30:37] <Danny_B> except for getting rid of wikilinks which is impossible
[2008-03-29 16:31:03] <Mido> nice, looking forward to see that, and britty for sure ;)
[2008-03-29 16:31:04] <Danny_B> besides eg. i already changed some targets in cs version to go on czech wikipedia instead of enwiki
[2008-03-29 16:31:31] <kibble> and we would like things to go to the local wikipedia instead of en when possible
[2008-03-29 16:31:39] <Danny_B> exactly
[2008-03-29 16:31:45] <britty> Danny_B, how about replacing with url / external links if necessary?
[2008-03-29 16:31:55] <Danny_B> kibble:  that's why i said we can't get rid of wikilinks
[2008-03-29 16:31:56] <britty> people understand url is to stay as is 
[2008-03-29 16:32:23] <Danny_B> britty: still [url text] wikitext
[2008-03-29 16:32:41] <britty> yep but for non wikimedia people it might be a bit easier to understand
[2008-03-29 16:32:56] <Mido> and when updating the page, find and replace all "http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/" with ""
[2008-03-29 16:33:21] <britty> it could be done on your editor locally 
[2008-03-29 16:33:29] <Danny_B> well my pov is the translator should be at least a bit familiar with how links work thus able to change the targets to existing pages on such lang wiki
[2008-03-29 16:33:57] <kibble> Mido: and then replace all [s with [[s? :-)
[2008-03-29 16:34:14] <Danny_B> and space to | and ] to ]]
[2008-03-29 16:34:16] <britty> Danny_B, it is not a part of translation expertise
[2008-03-29 16:34:33] <Danny_B> besides not all links go on wikimania site but elsewhere
[2008-03-29 16:34:49] <Mido> quick dc, sorry
[2008-03-29 16:34:59] <britty> but well we can use "plainlink"
[2008-03-29 16:35:10] <britty> so no need to rewrite its wiki syntax? 
[2008-03-29 16:35:11] <Danny_B> no we can't
[2008-03-29 16:35:14] <britty> ah so
[2008-03-29 16:35:31] <Danny_B> using plainlinks would add more code
[2008-03-29 16:35:46] <Danny_B> and you wanted to get rid of as much code as possible
[2008-03-29 16:36:00] <Khaled> excuse me for the interruption , What is the estimated time of the meeting ?
[2008-03-29 16:36:11] <Danny_B> britty: how about this:
[2008-03-29 16:36:29] <Mido> Khaled: 1.5-2 hours usually
[2008-03-29 16:36:42] <britty> Danny_B, we need not to hand them those source
[2008-03-29 16:36:47] <Khaled> OK :) 
[2008-03-29 16:36:51] <britty> we hand them only a list of source or not?
[2008-03-29 16:37:13] <Danny_B> You can find more information on [[:<!-- DO NOT TRANSLATE START-->m:List of changes<!-- DO NOT TRANSLATE END-->|List of changes]] page on Meta.
[2008-03-29 16:37:14] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/%3C!--_DO_NOT_TRANSLATE_START--%3Em:List_of_changes%3C!--_DO_NOT_TRANSLATE_END--%3E
[2008-03-29 16:37:27] <Danny_B> Wikilinker: shhh!
[2008-03-29 16:37:38] <britty> oh it increases our/their workload 
[2008-03-29 16:37:52] <Danny_B> britty: does it? how?
[2008-03-29 16:38:01] <britty> it reduces the readability of the source text
[2008-03-29 16:38:14] <Sethant> There's not a meeting going on right now, is there?
[2008-03-29 16:38:21] <Mido> I dun think links is such a big problem
[2008-03-29 16:38:22] <kibble> yes
[2008-03-29 16:38:48] <Danny_B> britty: sorry but your expectations can't be all filled at once. you must choose the priority of them. all can't be together since one clears up the other
[2008-03-29 16:39:11] <britty> readability is higher priority from my part
[2008-03-29 16:39:18] <britty> since less readability means less translations
[2008-03-29 16:39:21] <Sethant> I just wanted to ask if anyone knew when the scholarship application would be online.
[2008-03-29 16:39:23] <Danny_B> thus wikilinks will stay
[2008-03-29 16:39:26] <britty> or of opportunities
[2008-03-29 16:39:28] <kibble> Sethant: nope
[2008-03-29 16:39:51] <britty> readability of the source i mean 
[2008-03-29 16:39:54] <Mido> Sethant: next weekend
[2008-03-29 16:40:06] <Mido> appx.
[2008-03-29 16:40:07] <britty> so <!-- No translation this phrase --> reduces it
[2008-03-29 16:40:16] <Danny_B> i agree
[2008-03-29 16:40:21] <kibble> mido knows all
[2008-03-29 16:40:37] <Danny_B> i was trying to fulfil your request to tell them not to translate the link target
[2008-03-29 16:40:44] <Mido> I was going to discuss that at the end of the meeting
[2008-03-29 16:40:54] <Mido> I still need austin though
[2008-03-29 16:41:11] <britty> the simpler the source text is written, the more opportunity to get translators
[2008-03-29 16:41:33] <kibble> Austin: hasn't been here in almost 2 day s:-(
[2008-03-29 16:41:38] <Danny_B> britty: let me point out one other major problem
[2008-03-29 16:41:40] <kibble> er, Mido: Austin*
[2008-03-29 16:41:45] <britty> maintainance worklord is another issue; without content no maintainenance 
[2008-03-29 16:41:47] <britty> Danny_B, what?
[2008-03-29 16:42:19] <Mido> ok, let's focus now on translation issues only
[2008-03-29 16:42:36] <Mido> Danny_B: you were saying?
[2008-03-29 16:42:58] <Danny_B> when translating, you must know the context. the context here is represented by the variable name which shows where the text is located. now without that translators may translate some strings wrong / not the best way
[2008-03-29 16:43:16] <Danny_B> i can translate some things to czech couple way
[2008-03-29 16:43:19] <Danny_B> ways
[2008-03-29 16:43:31] <Danny_B> but each way is for different context
[2008-03-29 16:43:43] <britty> that is partly I am skeptical for this approach honestly
[2008-03-29 16:43:52] <britty> it atomizes the whole content
[2008-03-29 16:44:25] <britty> aaah arria!
[2008-03-29 16:44:27] <Danny_B> well, now i'm totally lost then
[2008-03-29 16:44:30] * britty misses her greatlyf
[2008-03-29 16:44:55] <britty> well in your way only wiki-savvy people can be involved I'm afraid
[2008-03-29 16:45:04] <britty> but for wikimania we rely on both people
[2008-03-29 16:45:10] <Danny_B> you have many opposite requests
[2008-03-29 16:45:35] <britty> people very involved and people who offer hands to know that from our call for transltors on translation coordinate websites
[2008-03-29 16:45:38] <Danny_B> so you don't like atomizing of the content?
[2008-03-29 16:45:47] <britty> basically yes
[2008-03-29 16:45:59] <britty> if you give a word it may have many possibilities
[2008-03-29 16:46:05] <britty> safer to hand them in a text
[2008-03-29 16:46:10] <Danny_B> so how it goes hand in hand with your request of getting rid of code then?
[2008-03-29 16:46:49] <britty> i don't understand your question?
[2008-03-29 16:47:05] <britty> i think i continue to say the plainer text is better to hand them
[2008-03-29 16:47:10] <Danny_B> you don't want to atomize the text, right?
[2008-03-29 16:47:37] <Mido> Danny_B: can we give it a try?
[2008-03-29 16:47:40] <britty> if the text is a paragraph or longer, yes
[2008-03-29 16:47:43] <Mido> strings only
[2008-03-29 16:47:51] <Mido> no whole context
[2008-03-29 16:47:59] <Danny_B> Mido: britty just said she doesn't like it
[2008-03-29 16:48:19] <Danny_B> i think we're all getting lost a bit :-/
[2008-03-29 16:48:25] <Danny_B> how about making some resume
[2008-03-29 16:48:33] <britty> well you can hardly make a mistake to translate "alexandria" for example
[2008-03-29 16:48:33] <Mido> but also the strings would be paragraphs, I mean where is the short words to be mis-translted?
[2008-03-29 16:48:46] <britty> some can be atomized but of course it could be risky
[2008-03-29 16:49:01] <Danny_B> britty: i can translate "what is wikimania" in 2-3 way to cs
[2008-03-29 16:49:13] <britty> Danny_B, that is
[2008-03-29 16:49:26] <britty> you can make a good translation since you know where it will be used 
[2008-03-29 16:49:30] <britty> or where you took them
[2008-03-29 16:49:39] <Danny_B> so without knowing where it is located (what i can know by the variable name) i can translate it bad way
[2008-03-29 16:49:40] <britty> but our translator must know before they began
[2008-03-29 16:49:51] <britty> Danny_B, exactly
[2008-03-29 16:50:00] <Mido> what about, have a look on the english main page?
[2008-03-29 16:50:02] <Danny_B> there we go
[2008-03-29 16:50:09] <britty> and this fear makes me dislike atomization
[2008-03-29 16:50:11] <Danny_B> so that's why the variable name is there
[2008-03-29 16:50:24] <britty> Danny_B, it is too complicated
[2008-03-29 16:50:31] <britty> geek-oriented
[2008-03-29 16:50:47] <britty> many abbraviations 
[2008-03-29 16:50:53] <Danny_B> omg, again - if you don't wan't to atomize, then entire source of page is one big wikitext
[2008-03-29 16:51:07] <britty> Danny_B, that is really preferred by them in fact
[2008-03-29 16:51:10] <Danny_B> and you stated to get ridf of code amap
[2008-03-29 16:51:14] <britty> i don't completely understand though
[2008-03-29 16:51:25] <britty> but i learned they preferred that
[2008-03-29 16:51:58] <Danny_B> so you would simply let them the entire page source, right?
[2008-03-29 16:52:17] <britty> so my compromise is to divide them into subpages
[2008-03-29 16:52:38] <britty> it enables us to make the page into text blocks
[2008-03-29 16:52:48] <britty> easily relocatable
[2008-03-29 16:53:19] <Danny_B> omg omg :-/ sorry for being so much dumb to cannot explain the technically related stuff
[2008-03-29 16:54:18] <britty> well actually translators may like to have a simple whole page translations
[2008-03-29 16:54:30] <britty> it is the traditional way to work for THEM
[2008-03-29 16:54:42] <britty> but it is not wikimedia people way of course
[2008-03-29 16:54:50] <britty> we are struggling to form a new pattern of working
[2008-03-29 16:54:55] <Danny_B> britty: i already said couple times subpages are currently pretty much impossible if there is  request for keeping the layout
[2008-03-29 16:55:22] <Danny_B> at least without making an order in it
[2008-03-29 16:55:35] <britty> well so we need to adjust several conflicting requirements 
[2008-03-29 16:56:21] <Danny_B> and also your request was to have as easy code of default main page as possible to have a chance to edit it simply
[2008-03-29 16:56:25] <britty> Danny_B, i think i can give a good example about this issue
[2008-03-29 16:56:30] <Danny_B> subpages would make it much more difficult
[2008-03-29 16:56:30] <britty> donation page of the wmf wiki
[2008-03-29 16:56:34] <britty> when it was a whole page
[2008-03-29 16:56:40] <Mido> the way Danny_B has made, makes it really easy to change layout in all version through editing only the English one
[2008-03-29 16:56:40] <Danny_B> i know donation page
[2008-03-29 16:56:41] <britty> we had 30 or so translations
[2008-03-29 16:56:53] <Danny_B> Mido: right, thanks
[2008-03-29 16:56:54] <britty> fundcom people turned it into template pages
[2008-03-29 16:56:58] <britty> Danny_B, yeah
[2008-03-29 16:57:09] <britty> then we got close to 20 pages in the newer way
[2008-03-29 16:57:14] <britty> 20 is a big number
[2008-03-29 16:57:18] <britty> but less than 30
[2008-03-29 16:57:34] <britty> i am looking forward a similar pattern in your ideas
[2008-03-29 16:57:56] <britty> perhaps we balance maintenance easy page and opportunity of more translations
[2008-03-29 16:57:59] <Danny_B> britty: afair the donate page was one huge mess and that's why i actually requested the wmf site access
[2008-03-29 16:58:21] <britty> you said so
[2008-03-29 16:58:25] <Danny_B> as i said, gimme some time since i have some idea in head but must test it and prove it
[2008-03-29 16:58:32] <britty> i see
[2008-03-29 16:58:40] <Mido> Danny_B: please do
[2008-03-29 16:58:47] <britty> and I of course remember your promise ;)
[2008-03-29 16:59:05] <Danny_B> but what i want from you _before_ i'll start is to make an ordered list of requests
[2008-03-29 16:59:06] <Mido> and we can continue on the mailing list
[2008-03-29 16:59:24] <Mido> which requests/
[2008-03-29 16:59:34] <kibble> Mido: next agenda item? :-D
[2008-03-29 16:59:35] <britty> Mido, agreed
[2008-03-29 16:59:38] <britty> it is 2 am for me
[2008-03-29 16:59:46] <Danny_B> so far i know: 
[2008-03-29 16:59:49] <britty> and i have an appointment tomorrow
[2008-03-29 16:59:55] <britty> sorry guys I'm out
[2008-03-29 16:59:56] <Danny_B> get rid of as much code as possible
[2008-03-29 17:00:08] <Danny_B> britty: think about the list pls
[2008-03-29 17:00:11] * kibble huggles britty good night
[2008-03-29 17:00:13] <britty> Danny_B, ok
[2008-03-29 17:00:22] <britty> nice to talk with you
[2008-03-29 17:00:41] <Danny_B> having it done the way only editing one page makes layout changes on every other page
[2008-03-29 17:00:41] <britty> it helps us get problems to solve? 
[2008-03-29 17:01:01] <Danny_B> having untranslated strings shown in en by default
[2008-03-29 17:01:06] <britty> so bye! 
[2008-03-29 17:01:30] <Danny_B> and make it as much translator friendly as possible
[2008-03-29 17:01:33] <Mido> are there any new volunteers, Markie did talk to many
[2008-03-29 17:01:38] <Danny_B> did i forget anything?
[2008-03-29 17:01:43] <Mido> Khaled: still there?
[2008-03-29 17:01:54] <Khaled> Sure
[2008-03-29 17:01:59] <Khaled> yes 
[2008-03-29 17:02:25] <Mido> fine, you have contact with Markie or kibble here?
[2008-03-29 17:02:50] <Khaled> Markie only sent me an email
[2008-03-29 17:02:55] <Khaled> about this meeting
[2008-03-29 17:03:31] <Mido> anyway, we're all here most of the day. you can come in and ask about what you like
[2008-03-29 17:03:44] <Mido> you can start working on the local info sections
[2008-03-29 17:03:48] <Khaled> first I'd like to ask , 
[2008-03-29 17:03:52] <Mido> update or create new ones
[2008-03-29 17:03:53] <Khaled> WHAT I CAN DO 
[2008-03-29 17:03:54] <Mido> ?
[2008-03-29 17:04:25] <Mido> you said you're not familiar with wiki syantx, right?
[2008-03-29 17:04:26] <Khaled> then till now the most of the work is Website work? 
[2008-03-29 17:04:46] <Danny_B> Mido: who's going to be the topmost guy about the requests? to say which has higher priority than another...
[2008-03-29 17:04:49] <Khaled> till now, NO! , but i'd like to learn about it
[2008-03-29 17:05:12] <Mido> britty would be
[2008-03-29 17:05:26] <kibble> Khaled: where are you from / what are your language-levels?
[2008-03-29 17:05:27] <Mido> Khaled: yes, basically on the website
[2008-03-29 17:05:47] <Khaled> Cario and live in Italy
[2008-03-29 17:05:59] <Khaled> Arabic , English , Italain
[2008-03-29 17:06:07] <Danny_B> nice, Khaled can be our experiment about if he understood the main page translation in the current form ;-)
[2008-03-29 17:06:14] <kibble> heh
[2008-03-29 17:06:18] <Khaled> heh
[2008-03-29 17:07:01] <kibble> Khaled: well, you can help out with translations, when there are new documents for translation you'll probably know :-) (we'll find some way to get it out)
[2008-03-29 17:07:14] <kibble> since you're from egypt, you can probably help out by adding information to the [[Local Information]]
[2008-03-29 17:07:14] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Local_Information
[2008-03-29 17:07:19] <Mido> Khaled: you're on the mailing list?
[2008-03-29 17:07:41] <Khaled> kibble, surely
[2008-03-29 17:07:43] <kibble> Mido: clarify which ;-)
[2008-03-29 17:07:49] <Khaled> Mido, No 
[2008-03-29 17:08:06] <Khaled> not in any one :) 
[2008-03-29 17:08:39] <Mido> the public one kibble I meant
[2008-03-29 17:08:44] <kibble> k
[2008-03-29 17:08:59] <kibble> Khaled: you can subscribe to our listserv if you like, [[mail:wikimania-l]]
[2008-03-29 17:09:00] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/mail:wikimania-l
[2008-03-29 17:09:15] <Khaled> ok, thanks
[2008-03-29 17:09:18] <Addymelov> I as well may help
[2008-03-29 17:09:40] <kibble> Addymelov: see my comments to Khaled, they'll apply to you as well :-)
[2008-03-29 17:09:48] * kibble huggles Khaled and Addymelov for volunteering to help :-)
[2008-03-29 17:09:53] <Khaled> danny_b , the mainpage, only on english!
[2008-03-29 17:10:50] <Mido> Khaled: you can update this one
[2008-03-29 17:10:57] <Khaled> excuse me, there are manylang, but i didnt saw them
[2008-03-29 17:11:19] <Khaled> i thought it would be in the left menu like wikipedia
[2008-03-29 17:11:24] <Mido> Danny_B: could you please explain how, in [[wm:T]]
[2008-03-29 17:11:24] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/wm:T
[2008-03-29 17:11:35] <Mido> [[WM:T]]
[2008-03-29 17:11:36] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:T
[2008-03-29 17:13:19] <Khaled> the translation is manual or Autotranslation ?
[2008-03-29 17:13:39] <Mido> manual
[2008-03-29 17:14:11] <Danny_B> sorry, wasn't here
[2008-03-29 17:14:26] <Mido> np
[2008-03-29 17:14:36] <Mido> you will work on the documentation, right?
[2008-03-29 17:14:39] <Danny_B> Khaled: pardon me?
[2008-03-29 17:14:55] <Mido> and please post it to the mailing list when done
[2008-03-29 17:15:16] <Danny_B> Mido: i just made [[Main Page/en]] so translators can simply copy'n'paste'n'translate'n'save it
[2008-03-29 17:15:16] <Wikilinker> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page/en
[2008-03-29 17:15:26] <Khaled> danny_b NP , now i,m reading the translation versions
[2008-03-29 17:15:30] <Khaled> it seems good
[2008-03-29 17:15:43] <Khaled> it seems the same indeed :P
[2008-03-29 17:15:49] <Danny_B> Khaled: let's see, you speak italiano, right?
[2008-03-29 17:16:24] <Khaled> S
[2008-03-29 17:16:26] <Khaled> yees
[2008-03-29 17:16:26] <Danny_B> so how about you make main page/it in the version as main page/en is?
[2008-03-29 17:17:23] <Khaled> it think that now they are same 
[2008-03-29 17:17:36] <Danny_B> Khaled: not the source
[2008-03-29 17:17:38] <Khaled> pardon , i dont get what do you mean
[2008-03-29 17:17:44] <Danny_B> and that's the point
[2008-03-29 17:17:51] <Danny_B> ok let me show you
[2008-03-29 17:18:03] <Mido> just one moment please
[2008-03-29 17:18:04] <Danny_B> Mido: atm there actually is no doc except for those three small rules of what not to translate
[2008-03-29 17:18:12] <Khaled> those pages are the same
[2008-03-29 17:18:13] <Mido> we need to fix next meeting time
[2008-03-29 17:18:14] <Khaled> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/it&uselang=it
[2008-03-29 17:18:23] <Khaled> http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=en
[2008-03-29 17:18:30] <Khaled> and they are typically the same
[2008-03-29 17:18:35] <Danny_B> Mido: meeting time is being fixed on main page not on translations
[2008-03-29 17:18:40] <Khaled> may be i miss waht do you mean :(
[2008-03-29 17:18:58] <Mido> Danny_B: I want to end the meeting/discussion now
[2008-03-29 17:19:17] <Mido> and you 2 can continue with the experiment ;)
[2008-03-29 17:19:25] <Danny_B> Khaled: compare http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/en&action=edit and http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page/it&action=edit
[2008-03-29 17:19:47] <Khaled> ok
[2008-03-29 17:19:56] <Danny_B> Mido: sorry i've read you wrong, my bad
[2008-03-29 17:20:03] <Mido> nvm
[2008-03-29 17:20:37] <Mido> next Saturday, at 19:00
[2008-03-29 17:21:24] <Mido> so, please make sure to settle translation things on-list asap. as Birtty won't be able to attend this one